the fruit

From: "nautephor" <nautephor@y...>
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:14 am
Subject: Re: the fruit




"The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of
Understanding." - The Kybalion.

[ http://www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion.htm ]

[note: '>' and '>>>' denotes Calamon's comments, where as '>>'
denotes my comments]

--- In EV-PsychoPagans@y..., Frank Anthony Overton <prophet@t...>
wrote:
>
>>>In regards to safety-nets, going into trance-state via foreign
>>>substances is less controlled
>>
>>control is an illusion.
>
>That is a very simple, bold statement.

[for a one-eyed fat man?]

Truth(tm) is always simple and bold.

>Please, prove it if you can.

Nothing is true; everything is permitted.
(and nothing can be proven, no thing-- sorry to get all
solipsistically slippery on y'all...but it's quite true (prove to me
that it isn't! *grin*))

Watch the movie 'Instinct' starring Cuba Gooding Jr. and Anthony
Hopkins, they do a much better job explaining it than I. (while
you're at it, I'd *HIGHLY* recommend the book that it's loosely
based on, _Ishmael_ by Daniel Quinn)

a perfect example is 9/11

did we lose security? (a feeling based in the perception of control)
no, we lost the illusion of security, we are no less secure now than
we were pre-911 (actually if anything we're more secure)

>If all control, all separation, all precision is illusory, would
>not all things be one and undifferentiated?

now you're getting it!

yes, all things are one and undifferentiated.

>Illusion literally means erroneous perception, concept or belief of
>reality.

we are in agreement.

>If I am in error, then show me what you believe is correct.

"Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to
see it for yourself." Morpheus [master of dreams] to Neo[phyte?] in
the movie 'The Matrix'

http://www.ix625.com/matrixscript.html

the themes one finds in pop-culture are an expression of the
collective-unconsciousness of man. many books and movies are being
produced, especially recently, that are man's attempts at explaining
this. like Rumi's 'Elephant in the Dark[1]' each frames their
glimpse of the ineffable in the metaphor of their choosing, based
upon their sliver of perception. again I must remind you, "the map
is not the territory" - "the menu is not the meal" and "the tao that
can be spoken of is not the tao"

[1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/aleph-ant.txt ]

whether the film is the matrix, the truman show, eXistenZ,
pleasantville, fight club, pi: faith in chaos, or any of a number of
other films, there is a message being urgently conveyed to the
masses by the visionary subconsciousnesses of the collective...these
messages are to be taken more literally than one would first expect

"Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places
if you look at it right." -robert hunter/grateful dead
[ http://arts.ucsc.edu/GDead/AGDL/light.html ]

as far as 'The Matrix' is concerned...are you familiar with the
popular allegory commonly referred to as 'Plato's Cave?'

[ http://www.quotes2u.com/doc-plato-cave.html ]

"AND now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is
enlightened or unenlightened: - Behold! Human beings living in a
underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and
reaching all along the den; here they have been from their
childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot
move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains
from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is
blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there
is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built
along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in
front of them, over which they show the puppets.

I see.

And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all
sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood
and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of
them are talking, others silent.

You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange
prisoners.Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own
shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the
opposite wall of the cave?

True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they
were never allowed to move their heads?"

let us compare this with a few more quotes from 'The Matrix:'

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/matrix.txt

While still on the subject of Plato's Cave there is an important
line in William Blake's[2] 'The Marriage of Heaven and Hell'
[paradoxick al truth: yin is yang as heaven is hell]:

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to
man as it is: Infinite."

[2: http://www.kobe-c.ac.jp/~watanabe/blake/ ]

Blake [a Sagittarius[3]] wrote this in the early 1790s, and a
century and a half later we see this quote return in the title of a
book, _The Doors of Perception[4]_, written by Aldous Huxley and
published in 1954. A decade later this book would become inspiration
for a young poet/songwriter named Jim Morrison [an othyr
Sagittarius], who choose to reference the book's title in the naming
of his band, 'The Doors.'

[3: http://www.acacialand.com/Sagittarius.html ]
[4: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/doors.htm ]

More recently a book has been published titled _Cleansing the Doors
of Perception: The Religious Significance of Entheogenic Plants and
Chemicals[5]_, written by Huston Smith, "holder of twelve honorary
degrees, is an internationally recognized philosopher and scholar of
religion. His book The World's Religions has been the most widely-
used textbook on its subject for a third of a century. Counting its
several editions, it has sold over two and a half million copies
worldwide.

In 1996, Bill Moyers devoted a 5-part PBS special to Smith's life
and work, "The Wisdom of Faith with Huston Smith." Smith has
produced three series for public television: "The Religions of
Man," "The Search for America," and (with Arthur Compton) "Science
and Human Responsibility." His films on Hinduism, Tibetan Buddhism,
and Sufism have all won awards at international film festivals."

[5: http://www.csp.org/cdp/excerpts.html ]

to tie the 'cleansing of the doors of perception' in with 'The
Matrix' there is something I'd recommend.

'The Red Pill' exists in the form of an herb [one that, for the time
being, is still legal in the United States, however, quite sadly,
the first domino [Australia] has already fallen]

Salvia Divinorum aka Diviner's Sage aka Ska Maria Pastora

Yerba de la Pastora, Hir Sageness, Sally Diva,

Thee Curiously Strong Mint

a mailing list dedicated to the usage of Salvia Divinorum as a
sacrament can be found at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SkaMariaPastora/

and a great wealth of information can be found about Hir Sageness on
several web pages, a few of which are:

http://salvia.drugsinfo.net/
http://leda.lycaeum.org/Taxonomy/Salvia_divinorum.269.shtml
http://www.sagewisdom.org/
http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml
http://www.cielo-ethnobotanicals.com/salvia.html
http://www.bluehoney.org/salvia.html

I get the feeling you're going to stick with the blue pill.

>I have little evidence to support any theory that I have no
>authority and that there can be no significant exactness in
>measurement.

>Without any evidence or explanation, your declaration is
>preposterous.

so be it. you've al ready stated to me that, "Being fully conscious
of my person is part of an oath I once took and there were specific
provisions against placing oneself in a state of passivity." and I
will reply that the evidence and explanation lie outside yourself
(or rather, within yourself - yin is yang (shhh! this is a highly
guarded secret!)) if you cling to the buoy of the self, you will
never know what secrets lie within the depths of the abyss.

in regards to "specific provisions against placing oneself in a
state of passivity." I am quite curious to know how you've made
through all these years without ever sleeping.

>Furthermore, I assert that consciousness is proof of control and of
>separateness.

I assert your proof to be nothing more than a grand illusion.
(cross the river Styx, you'll know.)

>Without the separateness of "me" I would not be conscious of
>my own existance. Without the control and authority of a divine
>entity, we would not be charged with existance, from which
>consciousness evolved.

that's the difference between you and I. you imply that you are
separate from the 'divine entity' I claim that I and the 'divine
entity' are one in the same, the separateness being merely a
transient [albeit necessary] illusion: maya.

"I am he as you are he as you are me as we are all together."
-The Beatles

"You will come to find that we are all one mind."
-TOOL

>>please define foreign substances.
>>does oxygen count?
>
>Foreign substances are those which are not a necessary part of your
>body. Oxygen (O2) is a part of your body, but many other
>combinations of Oxygen and other atoms are not. The initial
>definition is best to remember. If I wasn't born with it, or
>naturally developed it, it is foreign. Some foreign objects are
>good. Food is often a foreign object that can be easily converted
>into energy by our digestion.

likewise with manna, in it's many forms.

>>regarding all things foreign:
>>separation (like control) is an illusion.
>
>I disagree. Otherwise, traffic would never move.

samsara and nirvana are interdependent states

within the illusion there is movement, yes.

>>>and more limited in scope,
>>
>>you know this from first-hand experience? my experiences has been
>>quite the contrary (regarding limitation in scope)
>
>>please note I study under plant teachers
>>I don't walk with plant crutches
>>
>>there are several things that I've learn in 'their classroom' that
>>I'm able to apply once 'they' have departed. not just
>>knowledge/gnosis that is given to me, but also many techniques are
>>learned from 'them.'
>
>Magick requires dedication. To acheive results using only your mind
>and body requires vigilance, determination, and wisdom. Perhaps
>your methods were ineffective because of a misunderstanding in
>their implementation. I don't know why it was not as effective for
>you. I can only guess.

"We surround ourselves with mirrors."

You can only ass ume. Did I state that my methods were ineffective
or that I some how misunderstood their implemenation? I use the left
and right hands together, to realize that there is only one hand, to
realize that there is no hand.

I have acheived results, and success has been my proof..I care not
for braggadocio, but if a demonstration of success is required, I
will more than gladly comply, on the grounds that you go first.

>As far as my experiences, yes, I am speaking from first hand
>experience.

>Marijuana usage makes achieving trace state more difficult without
>it. You get used to the plant doing the work, instead of your
>spirit.

"Perhaps your methods were ineffective because of a misunderstanding
in their implementation. I don't know why it was not as effective for
you. I can only guess." -You

don't project you failures on to me, friend. as I stated, I study
from plant teachers, I don't walk with plant crutches.

>There are other examples, but that one is simple enough. Not only
>that, but often the effective molecules in some plants stay with
>the body for long periods of time, making it difficult to determine
>the appropriate dosage after consistant usage.
>
>I see you refer to they and them in single quotes. Why is that? Are
>these teachers the plants themselves?

yes.

>Hopefully you journal what you ingest and when, because sometimes
>we make mistakes and some of the plants can kill you over time.

thank you for your concern, brother. the plants I utilize are non-
lethal in all but the most extreme doses, as is the case with both
water and oxygen.

>Hopefully you have a human teacher, in addition to any others,

I have had many human teachers, they are transient, often not even
aware of their role.

The one teacher that always remains is the one seated within the
center of my heart (whose teaching assistant is a post-graduate of
evolution, expressed in the unfolding and realization of my DNA)

>because learning from alien life is not always as clear as when
>it is in English.

the lessons taught are supralinguistic in nature. words are not
sufficient to do them justice...if they were I wouldn't be here
spinning my wheels with you.

>>>so I prefer to work with the safety net of precision and
>>>control.
>>
>>illusions.
>
>Taking your arguement aside, precision is useful in that I know what
>exactly I am doing. Control is helpful in having my body do what I
>want it to do.
>
>>>Being fully conscious of my person is part of an oath I once took
>>>and there were specific provisions against placing oneself in a
>>>state of passivity.
>>
>>aww, then that's it right there! we seek to transcend the ego-self
>>in order to integrate our consciousness with larger collective-
>>consciousnesses, hive-mind, group counsciousness, then to even
>>larger ones, such as gaia-mind, eventually spiralling out into a
>>state where one can merge with the infinite (crossing the abyss)
>>
>>it's a much larger world out there than just one's back yard.
>
>Yes, yes it is.
>
>>>This does not mean I wish to cast aspersions on work in that
>>>regard. It is effective, but caution is even more advised...
>>
>>with a greater power comes a greater responsibility
>
>That is a misleading statement.

I will try to be more specific for you next time.

>Having more power does not grant responsibility,

I did not imply that, sorry if you inferred it.

>it necessitates it.

agreed.

by the way, in case you didn't get it, I was referring to line by
Spiderman's Uncle Ben, "With great power comes even greater
responsibility."

>>>Crowley was very big on etymology and being articulate. I have
>>>endeavored to employ at least that characteristic of him. There
>>>are other things about the man that were important,
>>
>>but you've chosen not to investigate them?
>
>Incorrect. I have investigated Mr. A. Crowley's life to the
>minutia, but none of it was as important as knowing that words have
>power.

then you should al ready know that separation is an illusion.

YOGA MEANS UNION

or was that not clear?

[ http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/yoga/ ]

The Pagan system is circular, self-generated, self-nourished, self-
renewed. It is a wheel on whose rim are Father-Mother-Son-Daughter;
they move about the motionless axis of Zero; they unite at will;
they transform one into another; there is neither Beginning nor End
to the Orbit; none is higher or lower than another. The
Equation "Naught = Many = Two = One = All = Naught" is implicit in
every mode of the being of the System.

[ http://www.choronzon.com/brainwav/thoth/thoth.htm ]
[ http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowley/thoth/theory.html ]

One = None
[Gematria of Nothing]

The Infinite is The Void

Yin is Yang

God is Goddess

None is All

and in that vein, Robert Hunter (Grateful Dead lyricist) wrote an
excellent poem titled 'Number and None:'

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/number_and_none.htm

>>>As far as the 'soma' cult view of early Christianity, the model
>>>has more holes in it than the story of the resurrection (you only
>>>have to be able to believe that a corpse can be restored to life
>>>via methods not understood by western science. Some magick, eh?).
>>>In fact, there is more evidence that Jesus was a female than that
>>>the apostles ate dope.

by the way, I didn't originally comment, but reducing the theories I
presented down to "the apostles ate dope." is definitely a snub, if
it was intended, cool. if it wasn't, then your true feelings (and
lack of comprehension of the subject matter) are showing through.

What's your take on the Eleusian Mysteries?

>>Were you able to look over any of the links I provided?
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/apples_of_apollo
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/kanehbosm.htm
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/sacrame.html
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/xmas.htm
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knowthing/files/mushetman.html
>>
>>the theory isn't completely sound, I agree, however anyone that's
>>had a communion with sacred plants and/or fungus can come to see
>>how the notions of the Christ's teaching are analogous with those
>>of said organic compounds.
>
>Read a book called, "More than a Carpenter", the bibliography is
>better than the book, but it shows proof of the reality of the man
>called YSHVA (Jesus). I'll figure out the author's name when I find
>the book again.
>
>Yes, I actually looked at your links... some I had seen before.
>
>>there's also this:
>>
>>http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
>>
>>which raises some very well researched and valid questions as to
>>whether or not a historical Yashua ben Josef ever existed.
>
>There is too much proof of his existance via disinterested third
>parties.

go ahead and gander at the above url, it appears that the 'proof'
offered by 'disinterested third parties' was by and large falsified
documents generated centuries after his supposed death by the early
church patriarchs.

>Besides, there is more importance on the words than the man in this
>current day and age.

agreed.

>>>Anyways, debating the christian religion in a pagan, albeit
>>>psycho, mailing list is like running in the special olympics...
>>
>>I'd disagree. Much of modern occultism is heavily influenced by
>>esoteric christianity, the OTO essentially claims to be the
>>reincarnation of the Knights Templar (as does the entire Masonic
>>Rite- the originators of 'the craft') Not to mention the
>>Rosicrucians and other mysterious organizations like the Priory of
>>Sion...the Merovingian Bloodline...the Cathars...the Gnostics, the
>>Essenes (the community at Qumran)
>>
>>check out http://www.dagobertsrevenge.com/
>>
>>and for a motherload of links regarding esoterica:
>>
>>http://www.psyche.com/psyche/links/miscellaneous.html
>
>Yes, this has a measure of truth,

how gracious of you to acknowledge that.

>but it upsets some of the "more-pagan-than-thou" types.

and that concerns me how? the truth generally does hurt.

>I generally avoid the topic unless in a 1-on-1 situation. Oh the
>author of that book is Josh McDowell.

thank you.

>In perfect love and perfect trust,
>Calamon

likewise, m'frater.

care

-andres solomon

=====

Postscript: Regarding:

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Frank Anthony Overton" <prophet@t...>
To: "nautephor" <nautephor@y...>
Subject: Re: [EV-PsychoPagans] Re: Declaration of Evolution


On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, nautephor wrote:
> yeah..I tried to participate on this list almost 2 years back and
> threw in the towel...
> was hoping it'd evolved a little further...
> I'll let y'all get back to yer McWicca
> -andres

Do you practice wicca? Do you participate in other more active
groups? I'm looking for quality magickal workers that have asses
without heads up them. I'd appreciate any help.

BB,
Calamon

=====

"We surround our selves with mirrors."

Have you found any magickal workers that meet your standards yet?